Nederlands bedrijf discrimeert Poolse Lowlands bezoekers - continuation

Nederlands bedrijf discrimeert Poolse Lowlands bezoekers nn - 21.08.2010 01:48 Meer dan tien Polen die statiegeldbekers verzamelden zijn vrijdag van het Lowlands festivalterrein gestuurd zonder hun persoonlijke bezittingen. Medewerkers van beveiligingsbedrijf "The Security Company" ( http://www.tscnl.nl/), gespecialiseerd in het beveiligen van evenementen, gooiden deze mensen van het terrein omdat ze teveel bekers verzamelden. De festivalorganisatoren waren geschokt. Ze legden uit dat er geen limiet is op het verzamelen van bekers. Beveiligingsmedewerkers gaven de festivalorganisatie als reden dat ze deze mensen hadden weggestuurd, omdat ze zich aggressief gedroegen. Meer dan tien Polen die statiegeldbekers verzamelden zijn vrijdag van het Lowlands festivalterrein gestuurd zonder hun persoonlijke bezittingen. Medewerkers van beveiligingsbedrijf "The Security Company" ( http://www.tscnl.nl/), gespecialiseerd in het beveiligen van evenementen, gooiden deze mensen van het terrein omdat ze teveel bekers verzamelden. De festivalorganisatoren waren geschokt. Ze legden uit dat er geen limiet is op het verzamelen van bekers. Beveiligingsmedewerkers gaven de festivalorganisatie als reden dat ze deze mensen hadden weggestuurd, omdat ze zich aggressief gedroegen. Twee personen zijn in elkaar geslagen door de festivalbeveiliging, waarvan een hevig en bloedend. Hij werd naar een politiebureau in de buurt gebracht. Nadat ze met hem hadden gepraat heeft de politie besloten hem terug te brengen naar het festivalterrein en een onderzoek in te stellen. Een vrouw werd op de grond gelegd en door een mannelijke beveiliger gefouilleerd. Zij voelde zich geschonden. Beveiligingsmedewerkers verwijderden foto's met beschuldigend bewijsmateriaal van telefoons. Eén slachtoffer heeft een boete van 500 euro gekregen. Het is niet duidelijk waarom. Beveiligingsmedewerkers vroegen willekeurige bekerverzamelaars of ze Nederlander zijn. Een man die zijn Poolse identiteitsbewijs liet zien werd onmiddelijk van het terrein gestuurd. Een ooggetuige die vroeg wat er aan de hand was werd ook weggestuurd na het tonen van een Pools identiteitsbewijs, ondanks dat hij slechts twee bekers had verzameld. ---------------------------------------------- Dutch security company discriminates Polish Lowlands visitors More than ten Polish people collecting cups for their deposits have been kicked out from the Lowlands festival terrain on friday without their personal belongings. Employees of "The Security Company" ( http://www.tscnl.nl/), specialized in event security, threw these people out because they where collecting too many cups. The festival organisors were shocked. They stated that there is no limit on collecting cups. Security employees gave the festival organisation the reason these people where kicked out was because they were being aggressive. Two people were beaten by festival security, one person beaten up heavily and bleeding. He was taken to a nearby police station. After talking to him, the police decided to take him back to the festival terrain and start an investigation. One girl was put on the ground and searched by male security. She felt violated. Security guards deleted photo's from phones with incriminating evidence. One victim has received a fine for 500 euro's. It's not clear why. Security employees randomly asked people that were collecting cups if they where Dutch. A man showing his Polish ID was immediately expelled from the terrain. A witness that asked what was happening was also removed after showing Polish ID, despite having collected only two cups.

Lees meer over: anti-fascisme / racisme kunst, cultuur en muziek vrijheid, repressie & mensenrechten

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triest gedoe

ans - 21.08.2010 11:25 fotomateriaal? pers ingeseind?

Write email or call

Kosiarz - 21.08.2010 11:36 Please write email or call to organizers and security company. Below contacts: The Security Company: Bouwerij 30 1185 XX Amstelveen Postbus 8001 1180 LA Amstelveen Nederland email:  administratie@tscnl.nl Telefoon: 020 - 4 562 222 Fax: 020 - 4 562 200 Organizers: Mojo concerts Bel ons: 015-212 19 80 mail:  info@mojo.nl

about polish participants of Lowlands

nn - 21.08.2010 11:45 Those polish persons are not reach kids that came to Lowlands to have fun. They are anarchists and squatters that came all the way from different polish cities to the Netherlands. They are on Lowlands to collect coups in order to make some money for their life in Poland. They bought tickets in order to work safe on the festival. They work very hard around 8-10 hours each day.

???

nn - 21.08.2010 14:48 Who wrote this text above? and where does he or she has the information from? I also got kicked out from lowlands because of the same reason, but im not polish but indeed also not dutch. i was with this group and wanna now where this information comes from that the organisation of lowlands is shocked, we spoke with one of the organisators and he was obvious on the side of the security and told us that we have to leave immediatly the festivalarea. also i wanna know where the info comes from, that this one guy who got beaten up brutaly and afterwards arrested, is free now? i hope im mistaken but he told me on the telphone that he has to sit for at least 3 weeks. what happened there was unbelievable, i even had to go to toilet while the door was open and one women and two guys!! ( im female) stood in front of it and had fun. But i will not leave it like this and will find out the names from those who harmed us. and no we dont have any fotos cause they brutally tooken our phones away after they saw we made pix which we even almost didnt became back.

lowlands fest not for polish people

matt - 21.08.2010 15:09 its really important for my polish friends, to call to the office of this festival, and to the security, to stop this anti-polish attack. It`s for now a better way to pressure them. the arested person is still on police station at Lelystad with very heavy charges.

info - question

matol - 21.08.2010 15:20 info is from a fest, from people who spoke with some "organizer". if you in amsterdam, it will be benefit meeting about Rozbrat, and we can meet togeather.

mistake

nn - 21.08.2010 15:34 sorry , i wrote above that this guy has to sit for at least 3 weeks but i ment 3 days.

De festivalorganisatoren waren geschokt ?? XD

noname - 21.08.2010 16:54 Please do not provide false in formations. It was about 30 polish cup collectors had been capcherd by security guards all phones were taken to prevent taking pictures of security guys,they refused to show id or even tell the name of their company.. Also one dutch cup collector was capcherd but as soon as they find out his nationality they just let him go.. From all others(polish and one german) de bandjes were stolen (it took them about one month in poland to make money for lowlands the ticket. none of them broke any rule of the festival.Some were beatin up,one realy badly,he was refused to see a doctor for a long time. Girls were forced to pee in the toilet with an open door and bunch of security guys kept staring at her.. The organisators of lowlands had known those facts,only thing they had to say was we were not allowed at the festival area any more and threat us with 3 days in jail if we will come back.Organisators kept looking at us being pushed further from the main entrance. Now were gonna start the courtcase aginst TSC to make them face responsibility for that whats happend.and get refund for the stolen tickets.  noise4poor@yahoo.com E-Mail: noise4poor@yahoo.com

bekerrapers

nn - 22.08.2010 08:28 tot mijn verbazing blijkt dit een hele arbeidstak te zijn die mij niet eerder bekend was:  http://www.google.nl/search?q=bekerrapers als de security nou zakkenrollers of tentenstropers zou gaan zoeken, maar bekerrapers? op de fora blijkt dat de jongeren waarbij ik geen rijke ouders vermoed het wel prima vinden dat er bekerrapers zijn, lowlands is tenslotte waanzinnig duur. de lui die hun recycle beker over de schouder werpen hebben blijkbaar geld genoeg en vinden de bekerrapers vies, naar, ratten of een ander xenofoob pvv standpunt. tja deze opportunistische mensen werken hier op de overschotten de verwende kaaskoppen jeugd.

nl anarchist

nn - 22.08.2010 08:50 my dear anarchist comrades, what is anarchist about working on lowlands? you are earning money(=cups) that the rich dutch kids are throwing away. nothing against recylcing, but you are being employed by a festival where you have to pay (=ticket) to work. no workers rights at all. we need you on this side of the barricades! there are squatter festivals where you can help coorganise and enjoy, and if you need money there are anarachists with self-organised work that you can join. there are alternatives! of course in your actions against the malpractices of the security you will have the solidarity of us! come and connect!

festivals/partys

securitydude - 22.08.2010 12:14 the behavior of this security company and from the organisation is offcourse completly discusting but working as security on partys myself i know how dificult its going to be to get in an court any compensation/condemnation. on the festival grounds you dont have the same rights as on normal streets. By buying an ticket you promise to adhere too any rules the organisation comes up with including the right to being kicked out whenever it basicly pleases them. your only chance is if you base your complaint on discrimination but they will likely say that you where being agressive or drunk or sommething and they will get away with it. And if they have anywere in their rulez something vaguely over not allowing cupcollecting you are fucked. so play the discrimination card and play it well because its probably the only leg you have to stand on.

@ securitydude and ATTEMPT TO MURDER

nn - 22.08.2010 14:09 @ securitydude thanx for the info, i have a question, how does it work on festivals? can the organisation just change rules whenever and wherever they want? because it was nowhere standing ( for us visible) that ur only allowed to collect for example 50 cups or that ur only allowed to collect cups for maybe an hour or something. also we didnt get any warning that from now on there are different rules, can they then just arrest us immediatly? and even if it was written down but for us not visible and nobody warned us that there are this kind of rules can they just do what they did? and what are our rights then? For sure it was an act of discrimination because one polish guy was just asking , what is going on and he got also arrested , he didnt had any cups in his hands, he just wanted to know , why they arrested me. ATTEMPT TO MURDER, one guy of us is still in prison and we dunno when he will come out, his charges are very heavy, ATTEMPT TO MURDER this is totally insane cause the securityguys were actually almost murdering him. 10 big securities where holding him on the ground and beated him up with all their power. how can this be ? how are u able to murder somebody if 10 strong assholes are holding u down? the only thing he did was refusing to sit. we organized him a lawyer now and hope everything will turn out good for him.

..

.. - 22.08.2010 14:10 It is obviously nonsense to state that a security company can do whatever it pleases on the sole basis that by buying a ticket you impliedly agree to give effect to their orders. Any disproportionate conduct by the security firm (which assault clearly is) can be tested in court in a civil action. On the basis of the information in the original post, there is no need to take the hard-to-prove way of discrimination in this case. And no, these persons were not employed by Lowlands to collect cups! So hold your anarchistic horses, please, if you do not know what you are talking about. If polish people, or any people for that matter, decide to collect cups they do it on their own initiative.

rules

securitydude - 22.08.2010 15:16 The rules need to be short on the ticket, at the entrance and on the website. The complete rules need to be available when asked for it. Probably there is nothing in it (yet) about cup collecting but you can be sure there is about "not being allowed to be intoxicated" "being obligated to follow orders from personnel" and a few other very broad things where it will be very hard too proof from that you didn't breach them. Besides, with an festival this size the police is completely dependant on the cooperation of the security firm and work hand in glove with them wich mean that they will always side with them first. So yeah press charges both against the individual guards (they are legally very vulnerable for excessive violence charges) as against the company/organization but don't hold your breath expecting to win. Let your lawyer have a good look for cases where stadium stewards misbehaved against football fans, I know there where some cases won recently.

the guy in prison is my best friend!

Dennis - 22.08.2010 15:17 @everyone : the guy in prison is my best friend! I'm Dutch and he is Polish, we know eachother since 3 years now and close friends ever since. He is the sweetest person and would never do harm to anyone! Am sad to hear what has happened with him and think the security people are totally responsible for what they have done to him! They have no right to beat him up for such a reason, or any reason at all! They knew they were wrong at the scene already cause why else would they destroy all photos and film that was made of this? This would clearly proove that my friend did nothing and they were the guilty ones. I really hope this lawyer knows the law and will get him free with no consequences of any kind!

"Lowlands discrimineert, mishandelt en liegt"

Verbaasde Lezer - 22.08.2010 16:10 Schokkend als ik dit zo allemaal lees over dit escapistische rich-kids evenement. De kop dekt mijns inziens de ernstige lading niet genoeg. Dat beveiligingsbedrijf valt onder volledige verantwoordelijkheid van de Lowlands Festvial organisatie. Dus stel ik voor als nieuwskop: "Lowlands organisatie discrimineert, mishandelt en liegt"

@verbaasde lezer

Dennis - 22.08.2010 16:32 @verbaasde lezer and others : my best friend and the people there are collecting these cups 2 make a living and 2 earn money by working hard every day...as written above in another comment : what the rich people throw away as garbage is worth money, if you put time and efforts in this... I think that when a securitycompany/organisation is specifically looking for Polish people (the dutch could continue their work if i read it correct)that are collecting cups then it's obvious that discrimination is what happened here...How would this be if the people were from Maroc/Turkey/other country : it would be discrimination all over the news! But now it's 'just' a Polish person in their eyes...i am from Holland, born and raised, and know how most people in here think about the Polish community : very negative! Just remember one thing : everyone is equal, no matter what race or country they are from. This is what my friend would have said also cause he is a good person! If anyone has somehow captured anything on film of this they should use it 2 help my friend and get him free, cause he is innocent.

reports

nn - 22.08.2010 17:15 Yes, the cops are more likely to trust festival organizers more than you but if you build a strong case you're much more likely to pressure the cops (and the OM, which would file charges) into action. You don't have to file a report in the place where the felony took place. You can do it anywhere and thereby avoid reporting to cops who work with the festival organizers. You can file reports for theft (taking your cameras, possessions, etc), abuse and indeed discrimination. All these things are illegal, no matter what rules they write on a paper. I hope that all of you press charges against these bastards. I also hope you can get many testimonies from festival visitors. I guess there are enough of them willing to testify/report as witnesses if you can find them (even after the unnecessary insults made at them – yes, they are mostly white and middle class and want to have a good time but why is that bad? Surely there are much more heroic things to do than visiting a festival but there's really no need to criticize everyone who's not on the barricades 24/7). I think it's also definitely a good idea to get in touch with the festival organizers. Some may have applauded the security guards but there may be people who have an inch of decency. You can ask them for compensation directly and you can ask them not to hire the same company as they did now. You can always ask and see what they say. Both the festival organizers and the security guards are very vulnerable since they need a good reputation to go on having these sorts of gigs. If 30 people file complaints for absue, theft, discrimination and what more, they may definitely get very nervous. If you really want to dive into this, you can also ask artists performing at the festival to support your case and reach the media to make clear what happened to you. And you can of course take direct action against the fuckers that hurt you. In any case, your chances of getting some sort of justice will drastically increase invest a lot of time. I hope you have the energy and time to do that, even though I know most people have other things on their mind. In any case, I wish you good luck!

@nn

Dennis - 22.08.2010 17:54 i have used the 'rich people' words only 2 make people aware of something simple : each cup you throw away without realizing is worth money to others, not mean this directly at rich people or something... Yes! Everyone who witnessed this crime against my friend should come forward and do something with what they saw... I would like to see those big guys standing in court and explaining to a judge why they found it necessary to totally beat up my friend with the 10 of them! As i wrote before : if this had happened to people from other countries/races then it would already be all over the news...Therefore maybe it's a good option to go to the media and tv with this story if this is needed! If the truth comes out to the public in Holland, then it's only more bad commercials for this company and Lowlands, which they have now deserved.

Recover Deleted photo's from digital camera

nn - 22.08.2010 18:32 A website that gives simple instructions for retrieving lost photos. This is for the victims of the unacceptable discrimination that happened at Lowlands Festival. Hopefully you can retrieve photo's with incriminating evidence that will help and make your case stronger so that you can prosecute. Check out this website, I hope that it helps you.  http://www.ofzenandcomputing.com/zanswers/60

fence

nn - 22.08.2010 19:10 to clear one thing out, festival visitors will not be able to help us with testimonies, cause the security was bringing us to a place surrounded by fences and far away from the concertarea. Also at this place were no cameras installed. but we will ask the people who made photos to use this recovery programm. But i guess it will be not much people who actually made photos because as soon the security saw somebody wanting to make pix , they grapped it very, very fast.

@nn

Dennis - 22.08.2010 19:10 Thanx for this link! For making things a bit clear : i was not on the festival, but just at home and before i read the original newsmessage yesterday, i had no idea of him even being on Lowlands and only knew he was somewhere in Holland on festivals collecting cups. When i read the message i immediately knew he was involved in this, but only as of this morning i know how serious he is involved! I have just send a mail to the policestation where they are holding him to ask them for info on things cause would really like to know how things are at the moment, which i don't know...At this moment i don't even know if he still has my phonenumber cause it was only in his phone, which i have tried 2 call 4 times yesterday and send sms this morning (which got delivered) but have no idea where his phone even is at the moment... I care for my friend and don't let him down in this.

@everyone

Dennis - 22.08.2010 20:16 If anyone has new information about my friend or about this whole thing, then please post it on indymedia...At this moment i know nothing more then what is written on this site :( I would be thankful for this!

nl anarchist so lame

noname - 22.08.2010 20:29 thnx for telling us about diy festivals,we never heard about it. cup collectors were screwing lowlands budged thats why they were kicked out.Oranisators quickly calculated how much money gonna flow out from festival cuz of cup collectors thats why kicked them out.(even with their profit cant really feel it but can look at numbers thou).and some people still write organisators were shocked they were shocked. your anarchy ends with wall of your libary where u built your barricades. and i appreciate post of security dude,which is helpfull and makes most sense.thnx. E-Mail: noise4poor@yahoo.com

handig

nn - 22.08.2010 21:39 Hier  http://www.bureaugelijkebehandeling.nl/ het adres van bureau gelijke behandeling flevoland (oud antidiscriminatie bureau) zij hebben contacten en kunnen vast verder helpen.

filmpje over bekersrapen

link - 22.08.2010 21:53 Hier een linkje naar een item op nu.nl:  http://www.nu.nl/muziek/2317417/goedkoop-weekend-lowlands.html De organisatie legt keurig uit waarom ze het statiegeldsysteem hebben en er worden wat personen geinterviewd die al 300 euro bijeengeraapt hebben. Of de organisatie is in dit filmje een schijnheilig verhaaltje aan het vertellen of het is puur de ordedienst die polen discrimineert of misschien mensen die er niet zo net uitzien als je jongeren in het filmpje. (of de mensen die er uit werden gegooid en in elkaar werden getrimd waren achter de rug van mensen nog niet lege bekers aan het rapen. Uit de verhalen hierboven blijkt hier echter niets van. Ik wil trouwens niet zeggen dat je iemand er in dat geval wel uit zou mogen gooien, alleen kun je dan moeilijker hardmaken dat het om discriminatie ging.)

to the "nl anarchist" and about Mojo

no gods, no masters - 22.08.2010 22:01 I am afraid you know not enough about polish economic reality to say come and help on our squatters festivals and believe me some of those people are living in squats and they organized not only squatters festival, but different political activities (info evenings, direct actions, demonstrations, support for workers, Food not bombs etc.) These "polish" anarchists, squatters, punks and some of them are students in the same time came here in order to make some cash for daily bred ( in Poland is MORE DIFFICULT to earn for living then the Netherlands) , so If they are back in Poland they can use their time for political struggle. Other subject. Mojo organizer. Of course organizer is trying to pretend to be environment friendly, because is so important and cool to be eco-festival or eco-whatever. "Please collect your coups and you will get deposit cash back" they say, but they mean rich and ignorant festival participants will throw coups away and never bring them back...so organizers were probably counting most of deposit money as extra profit and when Mojo discovered coups collectors they did not like. Don't forget they are capitalists! Profit and money making is they high priority. Mojo made this festival to make money and not to share profit with coups collectors. People might wonder: what will happen with coups? Mojo hired cleaning company, so does not matter if cleaning company will clean festival terrain from perhaps 1000 coups or 20000 coups on Monday. Mojo pay them for cleaning anyway. Often capitalists use fascist (in this case security) to deal with "trouble makers".

Hot discussion also on polish media

mgriks(at)gmail.com - 23.08.2010 01:18 in polish = po polsku here = tutaj  http://cia.bzzz.net/holandia_przemoc_ochroniarzy_wobec_zagranicznych_uczestnikow_festiwalu E-Mail: mgriks(at)gmail.com Website: http://www.positi.blogspot.com

Capitalism

NNNN - 23.08.2010 02:59 I am shocked that everyone seems to be shocked that a big festival like Lowlands, organised by MOJO, acts like any other capitalist company that feels it's profits threatened. It's not even a question if the security guards had any choice. They are hired to do the dirty work the LL-office people cannot do themselves. I think it was very naive of the cup-collectors to think they were going to be allowed to do what they did. Just look at the RUISPAGINA reaction of Hans. That is the dutch attitude. Arrogant, capitalist with no sense of what money really means to some people. Collecting over thousands of euro's is a kid's hobby and those stupid poor Polish people shouldn't disrupt their fun. LL is the typical dutch alternative-looking festival. It look alternative and all the alternative people go there, but in reality it's a commerce-fest for spoiled rich kids,students and yuppies who feel they are kind-of-leftish. Hasn't Holland shown everyone in Europe that we are no longer (if we ever were) the free-thinking tolerant country everyone hopes us to be by electing VVD, CDA, PVV en PvdA massively????!!! Kraakverbod? Kicking out illegal immigrants en masse. Locking up family's in detention centres. camera's everywhere. ID-controle. OV-chipcard. Police with unrestricted acces to all the information they want. Etc. Don't be so surprised that LL kicked you out!! That is capitalism at work. No amount of greenwashing or propaganda is going to change that. Please stop acting so surprised and offended. Be glad you aren't seen as part of the system. Otherwise you would be considered cheap slave labor with no guide-lines on working conditions. And whileyou are at it. Don't go to University. There you are brainwashed into a "productive" member of society. Let's all please do it truely outside the system. DIY all the way. I hope the guy will come out of jail soon. And I hope the security guys will in the future get into trouble with some group of hooligans somewhere and get what they deserve. And I hope capitalism will really crash so Yuppie-fests like LL can die out. Or at least that festivals will force people to bring their own cups. Or they get one cup a day or something like that. At least.

shocked

nn - 23.08.2010 07:38 @NNNN im very aware of those things u wrote, but i will be shocked everytime time things like this happen. my question is , how can you be not shocked everytime things like this happen? where do you take the power from to fight those things without anger and without being shocked? are you still alive or you just pretend to be so cool ? or maybe you lost all your feelings in the continuing struggle and just act like an robot? im happy i still can be shocked about things like this and that im not immune against it.

Scenebitches

nn - 23.08.2010 10:26 Wat realisme: Nou, ik vind lowlands toch wel erg leuk hoor. Goede muziek enzo, leuke sfeer. Ook leuk om bekertjes te verzamelen, soms wat minder als er inderdaad zo'n diehard rondloopt en het voor de normale verzamelaar onmogelijk maakt. Als we allemaal rustig aan doen is er genoeg voor iedereen zou ik zeggen. Ofnouja, genoeg om wat drinken van te kopen, niet genoeg om met winst het festival te verlaten. Dat had ik je eerder kunnen zeggen. Verder beetje raar van mensen hierboven om lowlands zo aan te vallen. Ja, het is een festival wat georganiseerd wordt met geld (en (te) hoge toegangsprijzen vraagt). Ja, het bestaat binnen dit systeem. Goh, het is dus kapitalistisch. Maar het is toch ontzettend tof dat er -binnen de geschetste kaders- een plek is waar je met veel mensen naar vernieuwende muziek kunt luisteren waarbij er nogsteeds (enigzins) aandacht is voor kritiek op huidige samenleving? Waarom dit festival dan zo afvallen? Ik snap dat het niet revolutionair is, maar dat is kraken in nederland uiteindelijk ook absoluut niet; om maar eens een activiteit te noemen die wel als stoer wordt gezien. Gaan we alle krakers nu ook inpeperen dat ze niet politiek genoeg zijn? Mensen hebben behoefte aan dit soort dingen. DIY-festivals zijn ook geweldig maar op een andere manier, kunnen niet aanbieden wat de festivalbezoekers willen. Dus mooi dat het er is, maar keuze tussen festival A of B is vooral gedreven door voorkeur van persoon of bijbehorende scene en brengt in geen geval een revolutie teweeg.

Capitalism and condition of movement here...

no gods, no masters - 23.08.2010 11:09 NNNN have pointed many signs of capitalism and state getting stronger, but what about condition of anarchist and squatters movement in the Netherlands? A lot is changing last years. This year we have kraakverbod, around 1,5 million people voted for Wilders party PVV (he got 24 seats from 150 in second chamber!), organizers (ACU) of Counter Culture festival took cash from Prins Bernhard Cultuurfonds, now Lowlands issue and lately I noticed that street parking machines have a little cameras (fuck! they want to film car owners when they buy their parking ticket !) As I know movements in Berlin and Greece those parking machines will be destroyed already... ...but squatters movement (big in numbers) is so weak and anarchist movement is small in the Netherlands and unfortunately many squatters and anarchists think is like a hobby and does not think seriously about political struggle. Please remember REVOLUTION IS SPONTANEOUS, so YOU CAN NOT FIT IN YOUR AGENDA! You need to be alert and ready to act quickly! Yesterday I tried to organize spontaneous protest by Lowlands with my polish friends, we thought we need a dutch person in order to not be ignore by media that might be there or in case of problems with security (you know we are polish, so security think they can do what they want with us). I tried to find a dutch person to go with us to make protest by Lowlands main entrance...some of them were busy, but others use very cheap and lame excuses (as very often happens in this country)...so I did not find one dutch person willing to go there with us and I called to around 20 people! We should deal with Lowlands issue, when is still hot! I think this week or next one we must organize protest by offices of security company and Mojo. I hope many people will join protest, if they think capitalism is serious problem of human kind. Mikhail Bakunin quote: "The freedom of all is essential to my freedom."

krakers

mx - 23.08.2010 14:16 Ik begrijp de ophef niet zo zeker aangezien er voor het gemak maar word uitgegaan dat de groep Poolse L.L. bezoekers geen overlast veroorzaakte. Als ik zo eens de reacties lees dan is/was er een kleine beker oorlog aan de gang. Dat mensen een te duur kaartje kopen voor L.L. en ook nog eens vanuit polen reizen om bekers te rapen als een vorm van inkomen zegt mij al genoeg met wat voor een soort mensen we hier te maken hebben. Ik ben in mijn tijd als "Hollandse" crust wel 10.000 keer weggestuurd op festivals door beveiliging bij containers,op straat en weet ik veel waar door de politie. Het leven van een crust gaat nu eenmaal niet over rozen heeft geen fuck met discriminatie te maken maar met een bewuste keuze om "anders" te leven. (En laten we voor de helderheid van deze discussie even de motivatie voor dat anders leven even weg laten) Het gelijk schreeuwen dat het discriminatie is omdat je pools bent dat is pas discriminatie en ook gelijk het grote falen van heel de antifa strijd in Nederland. Ik zeg gelijke rechten voor alle crusten!!!!! En ja de meeste beveiliging bedrijven bestaan uit nogal zieke geesten dat is inherent aan hun baan. Maar een ding moeten je ze meegeven zoals ik al eerder schreef ze maken geen onderscheid : het zijn altijd klootzakken ook tegen hun eigen nationaliteit. Kort genomen : je gaat naar een festival om geld te verdienen met bekers zoeken (wat geen recht is maar een extraatje je kaartje is geen arbeid contract) De beveiliging zegt stop er mee jij begint een discussie dat jij recht hebt op het zoeken van bekers enzz enzz beveiliging ziet dat het een opstootje word de verhouding op L.L. tussen bezoekers en beveiliging is wat? 1 op 500 1 op 1000 dus is het zaak snel in te grijpen. enzzz enzzzz. Jij hebt met de aankoop van een kaartje voor het grootste commerciële festival van Nederland je verbonden aan de autoriteit van dat festival. Het is een vrije keuze om het festival te bezoeken (ik zou daar nooit naar toe gaan) Dat jouw financiële onderneming (want laten we eerlijk zijn dat was het meer dan het gewoon bezoeken van het festival) uitloopt in een conflict met de beveiliging is een risico dat je loopt. het maakt me dan ook meer dan misselijk dat dit "arbeidsconflict" nu geprofileerd word als discriminatie en maakt duidelijk waarom mede "de rest van Nederland" zich steeds meer afwend van "links"

discrimination and last person is free again

nn - 23.08.2010 15:03 you can think what u want about "dit soort mensen" but dont tell us it wasnt discrimination! why else they ask people who collect cups what they are for nationality ? why they ask are u polish ? and if yes they arrest u immediatly? why they dont arrest dutch people who collect cups? ( and they have been there) this is obviuosly discrimination. for what reason they discriminated those people we can maybe talk about. maybe the security got these order from the lowlands organisation because they knew they will miss some coins with the cupcollectors and for polish people its just not so easy as for dutch people to do something against those things they did. who knows what was going on in their sick minds. but for sure it was discrimination. and one more thing, the security didnt say stop with collecting cups, they went immediatly aggressiv, brutal and arrested us. I guess thats a difference. and i cant understand why some people think , that what happened there is normal and kind of the own fault from the cupcollectors. THIS GUY WHO WAS CHARGED WITH ATTEMPT TO MURDER IS FREE AGAIN BUT HE WILL HAVE A COURTCASE SOON. further we have a appointment with a lawyer tomorrow , to c what we have for possibilitys against those security guys and maybe against the organisation of lowlands. also i contacted the anti-discrimination bureau flevoland and they called me this morning, they will now make some kind of research and then call me back...will c whats coming out. Further one of us was this morning at the lowlandsterrein and faced one guy of the organisation with the facts which happened. all he had to say was that we have to write an email. he didnt want to discuss it more and our guy got kicked out again.

This is discrimination

mgriks(at)gmail.com - 23.08.2010 15:19 if there on dutch media (link above) there on the moovie is security guy explaining that its ok that people collecting the cups, there are dutch people that explaining that they are making money, and in the post above few times you can read that dutch people had no problem, THERE IS DISCRIMINATION. Open your eyes. BTW Many of those people they are active political squatters ( often students ) thus rarely crust's

Scenebitches and MX are so Dutch

NNNN - 23.08.2010 16:03 The reactions by Scenebitches and MX prove to me why I am done with the Netherlands. This is why I am so COOL. I quit. Cupcollectors are seen as parasites spoiling some good fun for alternative people. Dutch people dont realize that there is real poverty outside (and in) this country. Buying a expensive festivalticket so you can make money collecting cups is so alien to the dutch that no sympathy will be found. LL used to be alternative in the beginning with bands that werent on recordlabels and you could get lots of vegetarian and vegan food. Now it's just another MOJO-meat and beer-fest. There is nothing alternative about it. It's MTV alternative not real alternative. I have not found peace in the Netherlands with this fascist/capitalist society and it's reformist, conformist, lobbyist anarchist and squatting scene. I will go somewhere where there is still a real struggle. That is why I didnt go to the protest outside LL. It will bring you nothing. Fuck this country.

jammer

nl anarchist - 23.08.2010 17:02 we have yet a long way to go together. people are angry, feel misunderstood, voice assumptions. i hope one day we can put all this energy into creating.

@MX

nn - 23.08.2010 17:37 He MX, het is natuurlijk niet zo dat als jij gediscrimineerd wordt dat andere mensen daar dan niet over moeten klagen omdat het er zogenaamd bijhoort. Ook als je een crust bent en je wordt daarom anders behandeld wordt je gediscrimineerd.

Soep niet zo heet...

Vancouverfan - 23.08.2010 18:04 Other news report are saying the Polish guys were very agressive in collecting the cups. People with half a cup were stared at or the cups were taken out of their hands.  http://nop-urk.flevopost.nl/index.php?d_id=28&s_id=764&n_id=158036 Also other people at the festival have seen Polish guys that were very annoying. So I don't think this is about discrimination. But trying to keep the festival a pleasure for everybody.

omg

nn - 23.08.2010 19:19 this was so clear that they turn it this way, what a bullshit, i didnt grap any cups out of peoples hand and i dont think the others did. they just need a excuse why they behaved like this. always the same bullshit, the bad east europeans, they are easy to blame. people wake up!!! once the truth will come out.

hete soep

nn - 23.08.2010 19:31 @ vancouverfan je kan zo zien dat dat krantenbericht aan geen enkele journalistieke norm voldoet. Er is geen directe observatie, het is niet duidelijk wat de bron is en voor de zekerheid zegt de journalist ook nog maar even hoe we de (ontbrekende) feiten moeten interpreteren ("de sympathieke maatregel wordt zo misbruikt). Er blijkt trouwens wel uit dat in ieder geval deze journalist vindt dat "Oost-Europeanen" per definitie geen "armlastige studenten en jongeren" zijn voor wie "de sympathieke maatregel" bedoeld is. Ik geloof direct dat veel mensen de bekerrapers als "overlast" beschouwen. Dat wil alleen nog niet zeggen dat je dan maar alle Poolse bekerrapers moet inrekenen, hun telefoons afpakken, hun foto's wissen, ze van het festivalterrein af mag gooien en dat je ze in elkaar mag slaan.

vancuverfan how lame u can be?

nn - 23.08.2010 19:40 really u have to be dutch lowland teenage lamo to belive that belive it or not all cup collectors were captured at ones.asked for nationallity and the polish ones got kicked out.they did not misbehive,were drunk etc.I wish security were tested for drugs thou. ive seen it.they all were sober doing nothing exept of picking up cups from the ground or rubishbins.just work,no one was violent there exept of security,cuz one guy didnt seat when he was told to. but whatever u have your media to trust.ally u have to be dutch lowland teenage lamo to belive that belive it or not all cup collectors were captured at ones.asked for nationallity and the polish ones got kicked out.they did not misbehive,were drunk etc.I wish security was tested for drugs thou. ive seen it.they all were sober doing nothing exept of picking up cups from the ground or rubishbins.no one of them was violent there exept of security,cuz one guy didnt seat when he was told to. but whatever u have your media to trust.

Indymedia or other, which one to be trusted?

Vancouverfan - 23.08.2010 19:55 It's very easy to yell at media or people you don't trust. Ofcourse it's okay to be critical about the things you read. Maybe some people should be just as critical about the Indymedia story as they are suspicious about my story...

hmm toch een andere mening...

Sb - 23.08.2010 20:19 @mx Jij geeft aan dat het geen discriminatie is... Ik las (nee ik was er zelf inderdaad niet bij, dus kan eigenlijk niet goed oordelen) dat er gevraagd werd naar identiteitsbewijzen... wanneer iemand uit Polen kwam, werd ie er afgeflikkerd, waar dat bij Nederlanders niet zo was... sorry hoor, maar dan zou ik me ook aardig gediscrimineerd voelen (en ik ben gewoon een boerenhollandse...) Die beveiligingslui moeten niet zeuren over bekertjes oprapen (misschien zijn de Poolse mensen er wel afgestuurd omdat ze niet helemaal relaxt reageerden toen hen verteld werd dat ze moesten kappen met bekertjes ophalen, maar als er niks gezegd was, hadden ze niet hoeven reageren) want er staan nergens regels op papier over het ophalen van die bekers, dus laat ze lekker...daarentegen is er volgens mij wel een wet die aangeeft dat je af moet blijven van bezittingen van een ander... telefoons en fotocamera's afpakken vanwege eventueel gemaakte foto's lijkt me alleen nodig als je zelf fout bent geweest...zegt wel iets naar mijn idee...

Discriminating the dutch?

nn - 23.08.2010 23:12 Many things strike me here in the posts above, but one thing is especially surprising in the attitude. Shouting out loud that this is discrimination of polish people and than calling all the dutch same as if this is an homogenous group. That is treating people differently for their nationality = discrimination.. Also dont try to put these 'capitalistic' intensions, that is making money, in a political struggle. This sounds like a pr stunt. What an entrepeneurship, the new breed. Anarcho-capitalist. Some honesty please.. Lastly I think making money through the cup collecting is a bit strange. There is a lot negative things to say about lowlands but I find it sympathic that you only need 10 cups to get a coin. These actions, by dutch or polish for that matter, will change future rules. Preventing even less people with little money to party at lowlands. btw, the reaction of the security sounds terrible, but I dont know what to believe.

Don't believe in everything what they saying

Spirit Of Squatters Collective - 23.08.2010 23:59 Geloof niet alles One poster which is saying Do not believe in everything what they are writing. Media,politicians and police very often are in the hands of the rich which mostly would like to be even more rich. That's why: Make difference ! Organize yourself ! Resist ! Look for Alternative's ! For example : indymedia.nl radio patapoe Vrije Keyzer TV every tuesday and friday at 20.00 etc. E-Mail: mgriks(at)gmail.com Website: http://www.ourmediaindymedia.blogspot.com

Regels

bier drinker - 24.08.2010 00:01 Aangezien ik als semi-capitalistische-pseudo-leftish aanwezig was op lowlands weet ik toevallig dat er wel degelijk regels omtrent het sprokkelen van bekers waren. Aangezien ik zelf graag grof geld uit geef voor mijn bier weet ik niet precies wat deze regels waren. Strekking van het van deze regels waren wel dat men geen ander lastig mag vallen met deze verzamelwoede

Capitalism, anti-capitalism and anarchism

nn - 24.08.2010 02:08 Yet another series of comments on indymedia revealing the tiny understanding of what capitalism is as a social relation or what anarchism is as a social movement. The comments on here about collecting cups being capitalist and we should all just exist outside of wage labour and capitalist social relations (as if we can just choose to) would be laughable in their ignorance and naivety if it weren't for the knowledge that these are genuinely and honestly held beliefs of a significant part of the squatters movement. The lack of grasp on reality is astounding. "The labels 'lifestylist' and 'individualist' are often used, frequently unfairly, as insults and so we have to be very careful when we use them. When we talk about 'lifestyle' politics we're talking about a kind of politics that focuses in some way on 'dropping out' of capitalism, on getting 'off the grid' and living without relying on capitalist exploitation. This can mean many things. It can be something small scale like living in squats and surviving by stealing from supermarkets or taking the perfectly good food that they throw out ('skipping' or dumpster diving'). Or it can be something much larger like a project to communally farm a piece of land or establish a new community. The reasons that people have for doing this kind of thing are very good ones. They see the harm that capitalism does every day and want no part of it. By stealing or taking what is thrown away they try to stop giving support back to the bosses that exploit us and people all over the world. By going back to the land and trying to be self-sufficient in food and power they try to live with as few links to global capitalism as possible. More than this, often these kind of political lifestyle choices involve building and living in communities based on solidarity and mutual respect. Many involved in this kind of activity would argue that this is 'building the new society in the shell of the old'. Whilst we respect many people who make these personal lifestyle choices, we reject this as a useful form of political action. The main reason for this is that it is not something that the majority of people can easily involve themselves in. Those with significant debts, dependants, health problems or any number of other things that limit their freedom of action find it very difficult, if not impossible, to 'drop out'. There is no possibility for building a lifestylist mass movement. Indeed, lifestylism does not attempt to overthrow or destroy capitalism; it only attempts to wash its own hands clean of the blood. This is, in fact, a huge political problem with lifestyle responses to capitalism. Often this form of politics leads to a kind of elitism and snobbery on the part of people living 'political' lifestyles. Ordinary people become 'sheeple', hopelessly brainwashed by their jobs and the media and as much part of the problem as the people that own and run the economy. In its most extreme forms, such as primitivism, this leads people to openly call for the extermination of the majority of the human race and a return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. This kind of attitude is not an inevitable consequence of dropping out, but it is very common, and it is the result of an individualist way of looking at capitalism. Capitalism does not exploit us as individuals: it exploits us as classes or groups. We are exploited as workers, as women, as non-white minorities or even majorities. We are oppressed as gay or transgender, as professionals with some perks, or temporary workers with none, as 'consumers' in the west and as disposable labourers in the global south. If we respond to the damage that capitalism does to us as individuals then the only logical answer is to abstain. You live without a job, without shopping, without relying on the systems of exploitation that surround us. If this is impossible, then you minimise your impact. You get an 'ethical' job, buy 'ethical' products and reduce your contribution to exploitation that way. From here it's only a short step to despising the people who aren't as 'enlightened' as you, who keep capitalism going by 'refusing' to abstain. However, if you respond to capitalism as a member of a broader exploited class, then the logical response is collective. You show solidarity with people in the same situation as you, you fight where you are for better conditions, and for more control over the conditions of life. A ollective response like this is always oppositional. It always has to fight capitalism rather than trying to go round it. It is, in potential, the beginning of a mass movement and the basis of a new society based on the recognition of our common interests. In the end, it is this that the ruling class are afraid of, not people dropping out, and it is this that we should be looking to try and build."

answer to comment "Discriminating the dutch?"

no gods, no masters - 24.08.2010 17:41 my answer to author of the comment: Discriminating the dutch? nn - 23.08.2010 23:12 First of all. If you mean that comment "Scenebitches and MX are so Dutch" is discriminating dutch people, I 'd like to tell you that author of this comment is my close friend and HE IS DUTCH as well, so you can not accuse him of discriminating dutch people. I am "polish" and I am also very critical about polish society, because big part of them are conformists and catholic conservative people. We both are tired of living here, because most of (not all of them!) the squatters and political activists are fake, conformist and reformist. Soon we will leave this country. To be critical about "own" society have nothing to do with discrimination and for sure is better then being anti-capitalist or antiracist and defending security and organizers, just because they are dutch. Your own words: "I find it sympathic that you only need 10 cups to get a coin. These actions, by dutch or polish for that matter, will change future rules. Preventing even less people with little money to party at lowlands. btw, the reaction of the security sounds terrible, but I dont know what to believe." One of my anti-capitalist friend also tried to defend security and MOJO and I wonder what is his interest to defend capitalists company and security that behave like fascist? Second of all. How you can call those people anarcho-capitalists?! HOW IGNORANT YOU MUST BE? BIG LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. Have you ever been in Poland? Have you ever been in situation that you have not other opportunities (as person with anticapitalist ideas) then collecting coups on festival? YOU SHOULD SEE THIS "COUPS COLLECTING JOB" AS EXPROPRIATION ACTION. They "stole" a lot of rubish (plastic coups) from MOJO organizer, so they were very unhappy on Monday, when around 100 people came to exchange those plastic coins for real money. ORGANIZERS ASKED THEM AGAIN: WHAT ARE YOU FROM? This is what I will surely call discrimination. If you dutch you can collect coups, but if you not then we can throw you out of festival, even if you have ticket and not doing anything against rules.

question ab Capitalism, anti-cap & anarchism

ea - 24.08.2010 18:03 Thanks for the necessary breathing space. Could you tell us what the source of your text is since you put most of it in quotation marks?

answer to "Capitalism, anti-capitalism..."

no gods, no masters - 24.08.2010 18:22 to the author of comment: Capitalism, anti-capitalism and anarchism nn - 24.08.2010 02:08 I am agree with you. My friends and comrades from Rozbrat collective (they were collecting coups also) know it is "elitist and lifestylist" solution to "drop out" of capitalism by using (squatting) forgotten buildings, skipping food from containers or "stealing" garbage (plastic coups) on Lowlands. But THEY LIVE NOW AND HERE and as you said they do not want to have their hands dirty, so they use this solutions. You should know that in the same time members of Rozbrat collective are very active in political struggle, because they know "elitist and lifestylist" solution to "drop out" of capitalism are not solution that everybody can use in their daily life and as you said "There is no possibility for building a lifestylist mass movement" either. In order to bulid wider anti-capitalist movement they are building connection with local community of Poznan. They support workers, people from their neighbourhood Solacz in their struggle against local authorities, they do activities with environmentalists and cyclists (lack of bike roads in Poznan). When Rozbrat collective organized demo to defend their squat some of the local people that were supported by Rozbrat collective came to show their support and solidarity with squatters and anarchists. As you see in their everyday political struggle they are trying to build up wider anti-capitalist movement. Please check their websites: The Workers' Initiative (anarcho-syndicalist workers union)  http://www.ozzip.pl/about-wi Rozbrat collective  http://www.rozbrat.org/ On the right bottom corner you can click to translate website to english, dutch and other languages.

Capitalism, anti-capitalism and anarchism

nn - 24.08.2010 23:50 Dear no gods, no masters I'm not criticising those who were collecting cups, I understand that people have to do what they can to survive under capitalism. I'm criticising those comments from dutch anarchists equating cup picking with capitalism, which reveals their lack of understanding of what capitalism is as a social relation, wage laour, etc., what anarchism means and what some people have to do in order to get by and make a living. As if there is an option to just live outside of capitalism or work in self organised anarchist jobs, as if this isn't another form of wage labour, even if it is self managed (probably part of the problem). See prole.info article "Abolish Restaurants" on the contradictions and false thinking in working for alternative workplaces.  http://www.prole.info/ar/index.html It would seem those picking cups are aware of those contradictions within "lifestylism" and "dropping out" and choose to take part anyway, which is fine and they're probably aware of the problem with paying to work and no workers rights, but being judged by others for doing it is the height of ignorance/arrogance/condescension. "As you see in their everyday political struggle they are trying to build up wider anti-capitalist movement." This is appreciated and understood, keep up the good work. Better than alot of the unenlightened self interest here in the netherlands. @ ea, the quote is from Introduction to Anarchist Communism by the Anarchist Federation.  http://www.afed.org.uk/publications/pamphlets-booklets/163-introduction-to-anarchist-communism.html

half lowland is nazie shit

crisis - 25.08.2010 11:17 When i read the remarks on hives and see them dragging a cut on a fishwire (were did they get THAT on a musicfestival??) all i can say is FUCKING NAZIE SCUM... they are so spoiled fucking shit bitches an shit digs we should starve them and then trow then in a cup-bin THEY WILL LICK THE CUPS CLEAN and then a cup-gatherer will have a much more clean job ;-)

Ook aandacht voor de kwestie op GS

spotter - 25.08.2010 14:28  http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2010/08/stille_bekertjesoorlog_op_grim.html

briefje

andere deurmuts - 25.08.2010 17:02 Net op de post gedaan, ze namen geen telefonische klachten aan. Zo vaak ging ik al niet meer naar een door Klojo georganiseerd ding, maar toch... -------- L.S. Naar aanleiding van berichtgeving over het optreden van medewerkers van The Security Company, al dan niet in opdracht van organisator Mojo, op het Lowlandsfestival jegens Poolse bekerrapers wil ik mijn ontsteltenis kenbaar maken. Ik ben een frequent concert en festival bezoeker, maar voel er weinig meer voor om door Mojo georganiseerde evenementen te bezoeken, laat staan als daarbij de zogenaamde handhaving van de veiligheid in de handen van TSC ligt. Ik ben zelf al meer dan 15 jaar freelance werkzaam als beveiligingsmedewerkster, o.a. op festivals en andere evenementen, en streef er juist altijd naar alles eerder op een rustige en menselijke manier op te lossen. Dankzij het verbale rascisme, machtsvertoon, mishandelingen, en andere fascistoïde neigingen van dit soort idioten loop ik dagelijks tegen het imagoprobleem van de veiligheidsmedewerker aan. Ik schaam me voor het gros van mijn beroepsgroep. Met het vernietigen en in beslag nemen van beeldmateriaal en dragers heeft TSC zijn walgelijke misdragingen nog eens extra onderstreept. Ik hoop dan ook dat dit soort gedragingen niet zonder gevolgen zijn.

mail

nn - 25.08.2010 17:49 how cool of you that you wrote something to lowlands. i also will write something now but not sure which mail adress, i only could find this one  info@lowlands.nl it would be really cool if a lot of people would write to them. thanx

Some selected coments from our media

mgriks(at)gmail.com - 25.08.2010 18:03 link to the pages below Anonymous Anonymous said... An apology from the security company sounds on its place here, because I think they were totally out of line here (what else is new). This is where the problem starts: most of those security guys are army or police rejects that weren't good enough to qualify for a more responsible security job, and then ended up with a security company. Please note that I said: 'most of them'. There are lots of very professional security guards, but obviously they weren't working on Lowlands. Tip for the organization: check who you hire next time, because this all is ridiculous. And an apology towards the polish folks that had to undergo this madness; I'm dutch, but VERY much ashamed of my country in this matter. Anonymous Only one with brains here? said... No proof = nothing happened. I can make up any number of stories like this, especially since you can't find any info on this anywhere else. On top of that, NO reports on this from the local police. NONE at all. Stop making shit up. Anonymous Anonymous said... Destroyed pictures will not be un-recoverable! Keep your smart-cards and cell phones safe and dont store any new data is it will overwrite the original pictures. Google for forensic data recovery. a tool like Encase (available in P2P and torrents) will get the pictures back. Without evidence this didn't happen. So get it back so you have a case. Blogger Tim said... I filed a complaint at the security company for their behaviour last year. on monday everybody has to leave the campsite.(this year the airforce was happy to provide a few flybys with two f16 fighter planes) Normally the security guys wake stragglers but now they have gorilla like staff with little temper on their payrol. What they did was cut tent cords with their knives and break tent poles just to get rid of the festival goers. This year some lost their temper when dealing with people having fun but not realy misbehaving. Like the toilet concerts on campsite 2 and 3. One guy went totaly crazy. I dont hope this will be a trend for the next years to come. E-Mail: mgriks(at)gmail.com Website: http://www.ourmediaindymedia.blogspot.com